This transcript is AI-generated and [lightly] edited by a human.

Karina Inkster:

You're listening to the No Bullshit Vegan Podcast, episode 180. Colleen Patrick-Goudreau is here to discuss the power of language when talking about veganism, the importance of authenticity and compassion, and the role of metrics and self-critique in vegan advocacy.

Hey, welcome to the show. I'm Karina, your go-to no BS vegan fitness and nutrition Coach, thank you so much for joining me in the spirit of transparency and authenticity, which is going to be a big theme in my conversation with Colleen today. I'd like to share a little of my experience of being a business person in 2024. So as I'm sure you know, prices of basically everything have increased and are still increasing. To give you an example, just in the last two weeks, the price of my website hosting service increased by 25% and the price of the coaching software that we use to work with our clients increased by 18%. Other price increases this year in my business include my email marketing service podcast, recording service, podcast hosting file sharing for my team, Google Workspace, and several professional fees to maintain our certifications. So it's pretty much endless Now, we have not increased our fitness and nutrition coaching prices in over five years, so we're not even keeping up with inflation at this point.

However, our prices will finally be increasing on November 1st. So just for my awesome listeners, you, I have a top secret offer if you're looking to get and stay consistent with your strength training and plant-based nutrition, and you want two long-term vegan coaches in your corner at all times. We communicate privately with each of our clients as much as they want. You can skip our usual Zoom interview process, sign up for the coaching package you'd like lock in our current pricing before it increases and start your coaching package at any point from now until the end of June, 2025. So as long as you want to work with us, you will have our current prices and they're not going to increase for you. Go to Karinainkster.com/lock ITIN to learn more and sign up. That's Karinainkster.com/lockitin. 

Introducing my guest today, Colleen Patrick-Goudreau, affectionately known as the Joyful Vegan. Colleen is a recognized expert and thought leader in the culinary, social, ethical, and practical aspects of living compassionately and healthfully, A longtime animal advocate and vegan. Colleen is a author of seven books, an acclaimed speaker, producer of one of the longest running podcasts in existence, a regular contributor to National Public Radio and the host of luxury vegan trips around the world. She can be found@joyfulvegan.com. Colleen's favorite food is frozen blueberries or authentic Japanese Ramen. Here's our conversation. Hey Colleen, nice to meet you. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Hi Karina. Really nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Karina Inkster:

Of course. I have to tell you that my absolute favorite vegan cookbook of all time since I went vegan in 2003 is your joy of baking. I've made so many things, they're like absolute foolproof recipes. So thank you for that book. It's amazing.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Thank you so much. That was my first baby. I'm very proud of my first baby. It is the longest. Yeah, it was the first book. It was the first book I wrote.

Karina Inkster:

Amazing. And that was what, 2007 ish? Not that long after I went vegan.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, 2006, 2007. And it had its 10 year anniversary in 2017, they created a new anniversary edition for it. Yeah.

Karina Inkster:

Oh, I missed that. I have to get that. Then the updated,

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

I like the photographs in the original more. I didn't have as much of a say in the second edition in that anniversary edition. And just for people to know that I don't love the photos as much in the second one, and I think the photos really do play a huge role in cookbooks. Totally. But it's good. And I updated some things because there wasn't when I to Joy Vegan Baking, so there were some updates to do there and it's fun, but for the most part, the recipes are the same. So you're good.

Karina Inkster:

Excellent. Good to know. So what's your vegan origin story? I know that it starts pretty early, even as a kid, you were thinking about the characters in the books that you're reading about all of the animals that teach us how to read and write and learn numbers and all these things that we then eat later in the day. So I know that that has something to do with it making this connection. But maybe you could share with me how you came to veganism way back in the day.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, so I think you are referencing my backing into when I look back on who I was as a child and what led me to make the choices I did as an adult, I think it's a universal story because it's not that animals were reading to us. Just to be clear, I do love the idea of sitting in a grove and there's deer and bunnies and rabbits and that they're all reading stories to us. I love that idea, or at least I would've certainly been reading to them. But it was the idea that in all these ways as children in all of these ways, the adults around us encourage us to have a relationship with other animals or at least a touchstone. So the examples I have used for a long time are first of all, all of the clothing. We has images of animals all over them, lunchboxes, bedsheets, wallpaper on our beds, there's stuffed animals, all of that.

And then what you're alluding to is indeed the books that we're read, the movies we watch, the songs we sing, the costumes we dress up in. All of them are animals. And the books, especially in the movies and the videos, I mean, they're not just cutesy books and stories. They are the things that teach us the most fundamental skills, how to count, how to read, how to spell, how to be kind, good social people. 

So that is the story I tell because I think that's universal because I was the kid who also loved animals and I did love being around them, and I did love sitting in a grove with them. I loved seeing them, watching them. I still do all the time. I loved domesticated animals, et cetera. Not everybody does, and not everybody has to. It's just that we do have a connection with animals that I think is pretty integral to who we are and especially to our development when we start out.

And yet at the same time, we're being fed the very animals whose images are all over our clothing. We go see at the zoo and all of the ways that we're connected to them. So I was that kid who did love being with animals. But like I said, I was also connected with animals. I think all of us are, and I didn't really realize what I was doing. I didn't realize what I was consuming, and I was like everybody, I mean, I know I went to my parents at some point and was like, I don't get it. There's a pig over there and then there's a pig on my how. And we are told the excuses that we all tell ourselves so that we can sleep well at night, which is the animals don't feel the same pain, they sacrifice themselves for us. We have to eat them or we won't be healthy.

Kind of all the things we have to tell ourselves to reconcile that dissonance. We have that cognitive dissonance, which says to us, we know we love to eat animals and we love meat. Meat tastes good, it's fat salt, it's it's flavor. It's all those things. At the same time, I don't want to hurt anybody and I love animals. So how do you reconcile holding both of those things at the same time? Well, you either change your thinking about your behavior or you change your behavior. That's it. Those are the two options. And so all of that thinking that we have around not only the animals, but what we do to the animals is a way to reconcile that. So it's what is called willful blindness. I mean, it's the willful blindness we all kind of grow up with, which don't tell me I don't want to know.

They're here for us. I need animal protein, all of the things, because we know that we're uncomfortable doing what we're doing. So I was that person and I kind of bought it and kept eating animals and everything that came out of or off of an animal and liked it. And then I read a book called Diet for New America. John Robbins book came out in the late eighties. It was really one of the first seeds that was planted to instill in me just this understanding of what factory farming was, what I was contributing to, et cetera. And so I started on this journey around that book and I stopped eating land animals. I kept eating aquatic animals. I kept eating eggs and milk and ice cream and cheese and all of it. And it wasn't until several years after that, and by then by the way, I became an animal advocate.

I mean, I was an animal advocate around vegetarianism. I was an animal advocate because I started learning about Vivi section. I was an animal advocate because I was learning about puppy mills. So that instilled all these other ideas I had about animals and our treatment of them. But as for the animals I was eating, it stopped at land animals. And then I read another book, and I read other books too in that time period. But I read a book called Slaughterhouse, and it was the book that just woke me up completely. There was no room for any excuses. There was no room for any dairy-based cheese. There was no room for any eggs. And it was the thing that woke me up and it just bumped up my activism and it bumped up my understanding of the world and my place in it and who I wanted to be and who I didn't want to be.

I became vegan. And we can talk more about why I put that in quotation marks, but it was the thing that transformed me completely. So for me, it wasn't becoming something different. I was already a compassionate person. I was already someone who cared about animals, and I think most people are. And so for me, it wasn't becoming something different. It was becoming something authentic and consistent because I never would've heard another animal ever. I mean, I did everything I could to help animals. And so when I realized the violence that I was contributing to, I stopped. And it was as simple as that.

Karina Inkster:

Wow, that's powerful. What you said about how we're fed these ideas and willful ignorance reminds me of a conversation I had way back, I think it was like episode 33 or something in its first year of the podcast with Deb Gleason who called it the Cultural Coma of Food. And I thought that was a really good term, is exactly what you're talking about. The ideas were fed the glossing over of the cognitive dissonance that many folks have, and willful ignorance, that's basically what it is all rolled into one.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

It is, and it's interesting because we're really good at compartmentalizing. So it's a coma, I call it being asleep. And it's the same idea. And we just literally, I mean, we literally closed our eyes. You can imagine when someone starts hearing about these things, they literally close their ears. You can imagine someone putting their hands over their ears and they say, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. So we quite literally choose that in deafness, blindness, ignorance. And we are also really good though, at compartmentalizing. I mean, I've heard from so many people over the years who grew up on farms whose family raised dairy cows who they didn't realize were being separated from their babies. I mean, we are so good at compartmentalizing. We just see what we want to see so that we can, again, it's about sleeping at night.

It's about having a congruity between who we think we are and our behavior. We cannot think badly of ourselves. We have to think good of ourselves. It's just kind of fundamental. And so that's why we have to tell these stories and say stay asleep to them. Because for me, as an advocate and someone who talks to people and works with people on these topics, for me, it's actually a good sign that someone says, don't tell me. I don't want to know, because I know they're really close. Because if they weren't so close, they wouldn't have to stop it from coming in. So if someone just said, yeah, I don't care, whatever, I love herding animals, I'd be a little more worried. But if someone just says, don't tell me, I don't want to know because I care too much. And I think that's one of the mistakes a lot of advocates make is that they interpret when someone says, don't tell me as insensitivity, as lack of caring, as lack of compassion.

And I actually see it as the opposite. I see it as evidence of compassion because if they didn't care, they wouldn't be so worried about seeing and bearing witness. And I think it's not that they're afraid of being vegan. I don't think people are afraid of being vegetarian, vegan. I think what people are afraid of is change, and they're afraid of the unknown. And those are the two things that they're confronted with when they know that if they looked at what happens to any of these animals in terms of the slaughter, in terms of all of it, they know that they would be compelled to make a change because of their own values. And to me, again, that's a good sign. And it's helping people navigate getting to their own values without feeling so overwhelmed by some shifts in behavior. And that's what I think it really comes down to for people.

Karina Inkster:

Absolutely. Does this relate to why you becoming vegan in quotes? I think I know where that's going, and you did allude to it a bit, but maybe we could talk about that a little.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, I mean, so this idea of as if we become something different. I mean, I think it's an interesting thing. I think language is interesting. It's something I've always been interested in, and it's limiting. And so we can only do so much with using words to express reality. And when we say even just the word vegan, we could unpack that for hours. I mean, even that word is problematic and wonderful at the same time. It's wonderful because it's a shortcut for the things that it represents. It's problematic because it represents other things to other people as well. So there's a lot of the baggage. It's baggage. There's a lot of baggage. And there's also, and we can talk more about this, but there's also no baggage. For some people, it doesn't resonate at all. It doesn't have any meaning for people. So I'd be very happy to talk about that.

But when I "becoming vegan" in quotes, the reason I do that is because I didn't become anything new as much as I removed the blocks to the compassion that was already inside of me. And that's why I appreciate that vegan is a shortcut. I use it in all of my branding, in my language, in my work, in my life, in my books. That's who, right? 

And yet it does not in any way encompass what for me this experience is. And I think the reason I spend a lot of time in my work trying to clarify what vegan is for me in the hopes that it's going to resonate with other people, I'm certainly not, it's not dogma. I'm not indoctrinating people to believe what I believe, but I don't agree with a lot of vegans who talk about veganism as if it's the end in itself, as if the whole point is to be vegan, as if the badge you wear as a vegan is more important than what I think is the whole crux of it, which is that it's the means to the end.

It's the means to the goal. And so for me, my goal, my end is to live as compassionately as possible so I don't hurt anybody and to live as healthfully as possible, so I don't hurt anyone, including myself. Being vegan is the means to get there. It's not the end. And I think that's why I spend so much time talking about language and how we frame these things, because how we frame these things is how people hear them and how people hear them is what determines whether they're going to want to make a change themselves.

Karina Inkster:

Wow, interesting. It's making me think of one of my favorite books by James Clear Atomic Habits, where he makes the point that behavior change can be identity change. So instead of let's say someone's starting to work out for the first time ever, instead of, oh, well, I guess I'm going to go do my workout now, if they change their identity as someone who works out, I am someone who strength trains. I'm a runner, I'm a swimmer, I'm a vegan, whatever the case may be, that actually leads a lot of times to more long-term and more effective behavior change. But to your point, I think a lot of times we already have that identity and we need to prove it. We need to show to ourselves that this is who we actually are. Maybe we're already a swimmer, we just haven't learned to swim yet. Maybe we're already vegan. We just haven't changed our diet yet. So I think there's maybe two sides to that where possibly we already have that identity. I'm a musician, but I need to learn how to have this in my life kind of thing.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

How to play.

Karina Inkster:

Maybe it's that related to veganism.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, I think you're onto something. So I haven't read Atomic Habits. I think I started, I don't know, I never finished. I don't know why. But that idea I talk about in the Joyful Vegan around identity, because I talk about it related to recidivism and people who stop being vegan, and I talk about it as it relates to people who call themselves plant-based versus people who call themselves vegan, people who do it for health, people who do it for the animals. So there's a lot to say around there. And one of them is there seems to be evidence, and I wonder if some of it isn't coming out of clear's work, but there is evidence that there is a difference between saying, I am vegan and I eat vegan. Just like there's a difference in saying I am plant-based and I eat plant-based. So it can work in that category as well. There's all this thing, you're not really vegan if you just plant-based. I don't care why someone wants to do this. It doesn't matter. The point is that they are owning for themselves what is most authentic to them, and to your point, what reflects their identity.

Now, the other part of identity that is tricky because it can lead to people avoiding becoming vegan. I'll use that language or stopping being vegan. And that is because vegan isn't an identity. Vegan isn't an identity. Compassion is an identity, right? I mean, so the idea is when people hear vegan, and this is what I meant before when I said that it doesn't have a resonance for people. There's no frame around which people can build that concept unless they have some reference point, and it's usually negative. So if you say vegan to someone, they don't think, oh, that's who I am. You're saying, oh, they're already vegan. They just haven't stopped eating animal products. Well, what I would say is that's why I think we overuse the word vegan. And I think what we want to talk about more are those aspects of identity that reflect who people really are, and that is compassion, that is wellness, that is sense of protection, that is sense of maternal instincts, whatever. So these are the things that people hear and go, oh yeah, I'm that, oh yeah, I'm that. Oh yeah, I'm that, or I'm not that.

Vegan is just kind of the shortcut for talking about these things. But if we talk more about what the actual aspects are, I think it excites people more and it inspires people to get on board more than just, oh, yeah, I want to be vegan. The other problem with identity and veganism is that it's often perceived to be antithetical to our other identities. So you would know this, obviously in the fitness world, no, I can't be vegan because I'm not going to be fit and strong. I can't be vegan because I'm not going to be masculine enough. I can't be vegan because I'm a mother and I have to take care of my children and make sure they're getting the nutrients I have to be nurturing. So vegan is often looked at as antithetical to our other identities. And so it's a matter of seeing that vegan actually, the breakdown of veganism, which is the compassion, the wellness, all of that are the values we already hold and they're infused in all these other identities. It's not something different. So again, it's this idea that it's not something outside of who we already are and how we were already raised and what we already believe and how we already want to be. It's already there. We just have to shed away all of the stuff that makes us think that vegan is something different than who we already are.

Karina Inkster:

Interesting. This is kind of making me think of how I went vegan. I'll use the quotes because I was already vegetarian. I was already someone who identified as compassionate to other beings, other humans, other animals. And this is not an excuse, but this is the nineties. We did not have YouTube, we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have Instagram. You're basically going to the library to figure out, Hey, what am I supposed to eat now? So I mean, it's not an excuse. There were a lot of people, including vegans back in the nineties. It was just less accessible. And it actually took me five years to realize that I was still supporting the meat and the dairy and the egg industries, they're all one in the same. I mean, I guess I was supporting the egg industry. I still ate eggs, but what I didn't realize is how they were related. And if I cared about not eating animal flesh, then I also shouldn't drink milk, and I also shouldn't eat eggs because they're all supporting the same system. And so it's, to your point, I already identified as someone who cared about these issues and the environment and climate change and other humans, but it was the means that just didn't appear for five years. And then when I figured that all out, of course I went a hundred percent plant-based in my diet, and it more aligned with my identity as someone who cares.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, I mean, that's what I mean. We're just really good at compartmentalizing that stuff. I mean, I read Diet for New America. He said lots and lots about dairy. He was the heir to the Baskin Robins empire. So it's not like it wasn't there. It's that I didn't see it or didn't want to see it, and I started where I could and did. And that's what it is for me. It just also always comes back to how we are as advocates. And when I say advocates, it doesn't mean everybody who becomes vegetarian or vegan has to get out there with signs and pamphlets. But we're all advocates if we use our voice in any way, and we use our voice in every way when we just talk to everybody around us, whether they're strangers or acquaintances or family or friends. And so for me, it always comes back to that.

And so when I think about how I was and who I was at that time too, because I was vegetarian for a long time before I was vegan, is I know there's a lot of campaigns that are really popular around saying, how can you love one and not the other? How can you love, well, if you're vegetarian, why don't you care about the animals who are being exploited for their eggs and for their milk? If you're not vegetarian at all and you have a dog or a cat, but you're eating animals, I get why that's being said. But I think we also forget that there is a reason.

The implication is that people don't care. The implication is that people don't care and that they lack compassion. And again, it's like you're missing the opportunity to focus more on the fact that they already are compassionate and inspire them to want to go there rather than make them feel like they're doing something wrong. Because people don't tend to respond well when they're being told they're doing something wrong. So it's a matter of just tapping into those things that people already care about and remembering where we came from too, because most of us grew up eating animals.

Karina Inkster:

That's how it works. Yeah, absolutely. And what you said about advocacy is interesting because again, it's a loaded term, right? Much like the term vegan or even plant-based where a lot of people will just assume, oh yeah, protests and signage and trespassing on factory farm property and et cetera. And there's a time and a place for those things. But I feel like it's actually more encompassing than just those few pieces. It could be you're just doing your own thing at the gym. Maybe you're wearing a vegan shirt at the gym. Maybe not. Jeff Palmer, who's a really well-known vegan bodybuilder, just had a conversation with him. He's always wearing vegan shirts at the gym and everyone comes up to him to talk about veganism. So I mean, that's a very effective form of advocacy. Is that for everyone? No, but it's one form. And so as you mentioned, just speaking to other people, being open to discussions and maybe also not assuming that people don't care. This is an interesting piece of the puzzle because I think it shuts off a lot of us vegans when we assume or we feel like someone doesn't give a shit and that's why they're not vegan. Actually they do. They just have some roadblocks.

It really becomes the us versus them. And I think it's really problematic because what we miss out on is the awareness that we all engage with each other all the time, and we all hold up mirrors to one another. And so the opportunities we have that we squander are so many throughout the day because people are always interested in what you have to say mostly because it's going to somehow pertain to them or not. We just are selfish little beings who see ourselves in each other all the time. And I don't mean that in a judgmental way. When someone's talking, you're usually thinking about what you want to say. You're usually thinking about yourself.

You're usually thinking about what they have to say, how that pertains to you. And so when we speak, we just have to really understand the power of our words that people are actually listening. And so if we're talking in a way that makes it sound like there's some kind of superiority or I'm better than you, or Why can't you just be this? Or you're obviously that. I mean, people read that. They can hear it and they can see it and they can feel it. And so literally the word advocacy comes from the words, the Latin words, which means voice, using your voice. And so metaphorically, same thing if you're wearing a shirt, you don't have to, I kind of use the word advocacy more than I use the word activism. I feel like activism is a bit more loaded.

And that I think people do think of blood splattered on fur coats and that kind of thing. Whereas advocacy, I think is a broader word that I think encompasses any of these things. And finding what works for you is really key, but it doesn't have to be something so formal. It's just conversations, interactions, understanding and compassion. And I think that's where it starts is we come to every conversation with compassion and understanding, not judgment. It's a lesson for all of us all the time throughout our day, whatever the topic, whatever it is all the time.

Karina Inkster:

A hundred percent, of course. And also, we don't always know what kind of messaging or what kind of actions are going to resonate with folks. And so that's why I think there is a time and a place for more activism and more education-based advocacy, and we both write books. And I'm in the fitness business. You do a lot of speaking, and there's different ways of attracting folks to this concept. And we never know. We can have educated guesses, but you put something out into the world. I put a post up the other day about a new article that I just came out with kind of aimed at people who are already eating vegan. It's about protein sources, and it's pretty technical. There's graphs of vegan macros and stuff, but two people who are not folks that are in the vegan sphere messaged me and said, Hey, this is interesting. Can we meet up and chat? And I'm like, yes, we certainly can. This is opening the door. But I didn't think that this was bringing everyone to veganism kind of article. But you don't know. You just have to put it out there.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

That's right. You don't know. I mean, it's something I've been talking about for years, which is just planting seeds. Just plant seeds and remain unattached to the outcome. And the surprise, the icing on the cake is that you hear from someone you never expected to hear from because of something you said or did. I mean, the truth is people are moved by things you write and say and do all the time. It's the bonus that they come back and tell you, and it's bonus that they come back and tell you that it resonated with them. But people are paying attention all the time. And so just not underestimating the power we have and the voice we have all the time, again, in every topic, not just around animals and food and veganism, but all the time people are paying attention. It's just that we just don't hear about it.

But we might sometimes 10 years from now, we might hear someone who said, you said this thing once and it just never left me. And I thought about it all those years. You just don't know. So speak up, speak with authenticity, speak with compassion and understanding and speak from your heart. That's what people really respond to. You don't have to be an expert in all this stuff. You don't have to spout statistics. You don't have to put graphs up of macros unless you want to. But the point is that if it's coming from an authentic place, that's what people really respond to. And that's the stuff that I think is really powerful and really moves people

Karina Inkster:

A hundred percent. You have one of the longest running podcasts, so you've probably had tons of conversations. You probably have the longest running vegan podcast, at least from what I know. I'm pretty sure that's the case. So in that kind of world, you just put out an episode. It's not like a blog post that has comments. It's not like a social media post where people can weigh in. You kind of just put it out into the world. And then some people might email you, some people might message you on Facebook or whatever, but as you said, you don't really know. I mentioned before we hit record that we're syndicated on radio. So I don't know who's listening unless someone takes the time to message me in a different medium that I hear from them, and we can have a little conversation. So to your point, you never know. You just have to put it out there, plant the seeds, don't have a connection to the outcome. I think that could be a lot of things practicing a new skill, fitness. It's the process. It's not the outcome.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, I mean, it's not to say that we can't be goal oriented and have milestones we want to reach, but especially when it comes to influence and inspiration, especially when it comes to advocacy. And I say that because people who are advocating for one topic over another are usually pretty passionate about it. And I think what burns people out is feeling like they're just yelling into the void and not thinking they have any kind of impact. And I'm here to say you do, but you just might not hear it. You just might not know it. So you have to just trust that what you're doing and saying is the right thing, because that's what you think needs to be heard, and that's what you think needs to be said. I mean, we live in a very different world now. We do live in a very different world where we're very used to just comments and we're used to getting all of the immediate reactions.

And I think that is really problematic because we feel that if we don't get a response, then what we said or did was irrelevant. And we have to work on and practice. I think for our own sake, just trusting you said the process, but just trusting that what we're doing saying is what is meant to be said and done, not because you're trying to get a reaction. And that's the difference between performance and authenticity a hundred percent. So that is the practice mean, whatever. Again, whatever the topic in our lives, we just need to, I think, go to a place of authenticity a lot more than I think we do, especially now.

Karina Inkster:

So authenticity, of course. This is a big theme, and I think it's super important. It's kind of your whole method of communicating with the world, which I think is why so many people are interested in your message and attracted to what you have to say because it's coming from an authentic place. I love that. I think that's super important. Where does critiquing our own methods come in? So Robert Cheek's new book, for example, is all about, let's take a look critically at how our messaging is or is not resonating with our audiences. Is there any of that happening where you're like, maybe I should tweak something or this didn't go quite the way I thought it would let me change? Is there any sort of iteration there?

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, I mean, sure, look, mean you can use metrics for sure, for any of these things that we're talking about. I mean, that's why there are algorithms. That's why there are insights. That's why people use metrics. And I think that is really helpful. I think it can be. I mean, I look at studies and I'm very interested in what tends to resonate with the public. Something I've been talking about a lot lately is around language of climate change and what resonates with the public. We have to look at what people are moved by so that we can be as effective as possible. And FYI, the tested phrases, even though they had kind of an interesting start is global warming and climate change. That's what people are responding to, not climate emergency, not climate disaster, not climate breakdown, not climate, all of the things that make it catastrophe. When things are catastrophized, people just feel like, well, why even bother

If the world's going to end? Why even do anything? So it is very helpful to know what resonates with people so that we can be as effective as possible. Same thing with the word vegan. I mean, same thing around the word vegan on products or on restaurant menus. So there's a lot of data around specifically using the word vegan on plant-based products using the word plant-based using the word plant forward, whatever, instead of vegan. And I am a huge proponent of that. I'm a proponent of restaurants not having a separate vegan menu. I am a proponent of not using the word vegan for everything that doesn't have animal products in it on a menu. So you can call it delicious, spicy chipotle, black bean burger, and you could put a little V there, a key, because vegans will look for it, but non-vegan will order it because it doesn't say vegan. And so those kinds of things are really helpful. But when it comes to self-identity or books or whatever, I identify as vegan. But when I talk about food, I talk about food as plant-based. I mean, so there's a lot to play with, and I do think it's really helpful to use some metrics for our own sake. I'm someone who tends to be a bit more organic and anecdotal than that's just me.

But all the examples I just gave, those are metric-based, and I think they have a place, absolutely. For me, I tend to go with what I can see. I have a much more intuitive approach. I go with what I feel reflects, and I have some guidelines around it. And I teach these guidelines to people who come to my workshops around effective communication because I can frame 'em. I mean, so there are guidelines you want to use words that are not just meant to provoke shock. You want to use words and phrases that are meant to provide thought, right? So there's a lot of different ways you can go about figuring out what works, and some of it is just how people literally react to you at that moment. But yeah, I think there's a place for it. I just don't over obsess over it. And once you land on something, stick with it, go with it, trust it and use

Karina Inkster:

It. Totally. That makes complete sense. And you know what, I think your approach, long-term is probably more enjoyable and sustainable as a business person, as a human anyways. If we're constantly just looking at metrics and trying to beat the algorithm and play the game, is that really what we want to be doing with our time? I mean,

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, not me. Not me. And that's the thing I think for businesses, and I'm not saying that I'm not a business and you're not, we're entrepreneurs, it's still a business, but as someone who does this pretty much as a lone wolf, it's different than a business who is looking to scale and looking to use the right terminology and which keywords I use. I mean, the publishers that I work with, of course they're looking for that.

When we choose the cover, when we choose the title, when we choose this subtitle, I mean, that's all involved. I get that. But for me, to your point, absolutely, it is so much more enjoyable. It also creates a lot more, and I think stability, because I think if you're constantly trying to game it, and I don't think that's what Robert's saying, I'm not saying that he's saying that, but if we're constantly trying to game it and if we're constantly trying to match what the zeitgeist is, I think that's also problematic because I think it's not authentic.

Karina Inkster:

Right.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Good point. I think zeitgeist don't last very long for a reason. That's why they're called zeitgeist. And I think it makes you less stable because your two feet aren't on the ground because you're just constantly trying to figure out what the public wants rather than what you think is really authentic and what needs to be said.

Karina Inkster:

Well said. I like that. And yeah, I don't think Robert is saying game, the Instagram algorithm, but I think we could have both sides. The coin, I think certain areas of our respective businesses probably are about SEO and how we get our clients is 90% people Googling vegan fitness coaching, and then we're on the first page of Google and 10% the podcast. So 90% of our leads are coming from people already looking for a vegan coach. And of course we have to show up in Google, right? But then other parts, how we talk about our business, how we actually form relationships with our clients, all of those things have nothing to do with SEO, and we can do that as a more organic, authentic kind of thing. Not to say that our website isn't authentic, but it's definitely more keyword ish kind of like the publisher situation.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

For sure. For sure, for sure.

Karina Inkster:

I'm really impressed that you do everything lone Wolf. I saw on your website no assistance, no team. It is like a one woman powerhouse doing all of these amazing things, and I have no idea how you do this without 47 hours a day.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Yeah, it's stupid. I don't recommend it. I don't. So no, there's good and bad with everything. Yeah,

Karina Inkster:

Well, it's impressive either way. And you're an institution in the vegan world, so I'm extra impressed. Thank you. Speaking of, you have a new book coming out. I'm excited about this. A Year of Compassion, 52 Weeks of Living, zero Waste Plant-based and Cruelty Free. And folks who are listening can join the mailing list to get more info and publication dates and stuff@joyfulvegan.com. But tell me about this project.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Well, it was originally 365 days and it got whittled down to 52 weeks. I actually think it's better. It was my publisher who suggested that I did. My proposal was for 365 days, and I do, there are some books that I read that are 365 days. It's kind of like a daily inspiration kind of thing, or specifically Stoicism is my favorite is The Daily Stoic. And I thought, okay, the Daily, it's not the Daily Vegan, but Daily Compassion Fine. I think it was called Daily Dose of Compassion. That's a mailing list I've had before, but her idea was 52 weeks. And I'm really pleased that we went that way because the truth is, when we're talking about some of these behavioral changes, as we said before, change is hard and taking one week to contemplate and adjust to or see where you want to make some changes in each of these areas, I think is much more realistic. Because if I was giving someone something new to do every day, it's overwhelming, and they'd put the book down and they wouldn't want to do it.

Karina Inkster:

Or they get behind by a couple days and they'd be like, well, I guess I am off the wagon now.

And the stress around that, that's not what the idea is, right? Because they're not just, when I'm talking about the Daily stoic, I mean it is more thought exercises. What I'm doing in the year of compassion is its thought exercises as well as really kind of inspiring different ways to think about the world and a different lens through which to see the world, but also making some changes. And so I think having a full week for each change makes sense. So yeah, it's kind of coupling a number of things that I think fall under compassion, all of these things around kind of living lightly on the earth. So around zero waste, and I say zero waste because it's also a shortcut, but it doesn't reflect everything that really encompasses because there really is no zero and zero waste. It's aspirational rather than really possible, but it's a nice shortcut. The word sustainable sounds so wonky to me. I, to me, it's just total academia wonk word. So I don't want it to be sustainability. I mean, even though I can use that word interchangeably, but zero waste is really about living as lightly on the earth as possible.

I can say that we can do zero waste when it comes to food. So I do talk about food waste a lot in the book and how we can get to zero. We really can get to zero waste when it comes to food and food waste. And then the other component is plant-based is the nutritional aspects and food, and then the cruelty-free is kind of all of the different ways that we interact with other animals in nature. And just again, living lightly, living compassionately, reflecting our values, seeing our connections to the rest of the world between us and the rest of the world. To me, that is really the break. The main thing is that when we see ourselves as separate from each other, when we see ourselves as separate from nature, when we see ourselves as separate from other animals, that's where we make decisions that are detrimental to all of those things, to us, to the animals, to the earth, to our health, to all of it. And so the more we can see our connections, the more I think we make decisions that don't feel laborious, that actually feel effortless because they're just an extension of who we are and what we already believe. So that's my hope with all of the work I do, and certainly it's my hope with this next book.

Karina Inkster:

Amazing. Well, congrats on that. That's coming out in the spring, is that right? Spring of 2025.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

2025.

Karina Inkster:

Well, I'm getting on the presale list asap. And then you also have a conference. Now, this reminds me of what we were talking about a little bit in the climate change realm. You were mentioning like the catastrophic type of language actually doesn't resonate with people because they feel helpless or it's past hope of doing anything really effective. And it's a conference how to cultivate hope. What's the deal? This sounds very interesting.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Well, it's very interesting because as much as the word catastrophe doesn't play with people, hope can also not play with people as well, especially people who consider themselves activists and advocates. Because there also is this kind of thinking, and I don't, it's conscious all the time, but that if we don't see the world as bad all the time, then what's the bumper sticker? What's the meme? If you're not angry all the time, you're not paying attention.

That idea. If you don't see doom and gloom everywhere you look all the time, then you're just not paying attention. Your eyes aren't open. And I think it's incredibly misguided, and I think it's incredibly untrue, and I think it's incredibly ruinous. I think it's ruinous for us as individuals. I think it's ruinous in terms of all of the things that have gone well because of innovative, resourceful, hopeful people, and all the things we can learn from that to do better. And so when I put out my messages of hope, which is all the time, but if I specifically focused on an episode or social media post around hope, there is a collective sigh of I just needed that. Thank you, thank you. Just thank you. Because we're surrounded with just bad news all the time. And some of it is, that's where we're looking. Some of it is that's what we surround ourselves with.

If you're just looking at the headlines every day and you're not reading long form kind of critical thinking articles that's going to make you just completely feel like the world is broken and it's just going to end tomorrow or that everyone's awful, it's just not reality. And so there's a lot to say around how to cultivate hope, how to cultivate joy, and not in a way that's Pollyanna. Because again, there's just this misconception that if you're hopeful, you're just Pollyanna and everything's fine, and you're just complacent, and it's also just wrong and misguided. So how to find that middle ground between being active and being aware, also realizing that things are better today than they ever have been a hundred percent full stop. 

And I know people are going to hear that and go, no, no, that's not my experience. Well, we're talking about statistically all the ways you can measure progress in all the ways things are better today. There is no point in history, there is no point. There is no time in history that I would want to live in. And I read a lot of history. There is no point in history where I would want to live other than right now, even versus yesterday. So we just have to know that and we just have to get perspective, and we also had to have to learn how to cultivate that to hold it and do the work in the world that is required of us so that we can keep making progress.

Karina Inkster:

Well said, that's so powerful. And I think it also speaks to the idea that nothing is ever black and white. You can both feel hopeful and also realize that there's a lot of crazy shit happening in the world right now that we need to change.

It's not one or the other. We can have both of those things. So sure, maybe we do a little sweep of the headlines and we see that the world is falling apart, but then maybe we have conversations with folks like yourself who are taking concrete action. We are affecting change in many different ways, whether it's advocacy, whether it's having conversations, whatever it is, we can have both of those things. And I think folks will often forget that. They're like, oh, hope is just if you haven't read the highlights or the headlines and you have no idea what's happening, or you're only really doing it properly if you're depressed all the time and just posting angry things on social media, there is a middle ground. And I think that's what you're getting at.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Absolutely. I mean, everything is a middle ground, and not everybody wants to hear that. So it's a matter of what we want. It's a matter of how we choose to orient. It's not a flip of the switch. It's a practice. It's a choice. It's a way of thinking. It's a way of being. It's a way of orienting. I always say, I mean, there are bad things in the world, and there are good things in the world. Both are true. It's a matter of which one you want to focus on in any given moment. That's just the bottom line. They're both true all the time. So you want to dwell on the bad, or do you want to dwell on the good and in dwelling on the good? That doesn't mean, oh, I'm never going to look at the bad. I'm never going to look at what needs to be fixed. It means that you go, how did we get here? If things are better in these areas today than they were yesterday and a year ago and 20 years ago, a hundred years ago, what did we do to get here? Okay, let's learn from that so that we can implement those tools and resources to keep moving forward. 

So it is incredibly strategic, is incredibly pragmatic. So again, there's just a lot of misconceptions about what I think people take as being just this kind of woowoo, masey, PAMs like compassion. People have the same reaction to compassion as they do to hope, and those to me are two of the most empowering, powerful positions to take at any given moment in our lives.

Karina Inkster:

Absolutely. Well, Colleen, where can folks go to connect with you? Is joyful vegan.com the best spot? That is the best spot. That's amazing. Thank you so much for speaking with me. Fantastic conversation.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau:

Thank you, Karina, really appreciate it. Good luck to you and thanks for all you do.

Karina Inkster:

Thank you. You too. Colleen, thank you again for joining me on the show. Head to our show notes@nobullshitvegan.com slash 1 8 0 to connect with Colleen. And don't forget that ahead of our coaching program pricing Increase, you can lock in our current rates and use your coaching package anytime from now until June, 2025. Go to karina inkster.com/lock itin. Thanks for listening.